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Cynolove693

Social Anxiety and Zoophilia

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Cynolove693    155

Hmm some very interesting points have been made here, but "Bestiality is always a choice" man someone should have told me that when I was 6 years old visiting one of my relatives house with the uncontrollable urge to pet her dog a little lower than normal every time she wanted a belly rub; I didn't even know what sex was at that point or even understand why I felt that way, didn't stop me from pitching a tent though and slipping a finger into her when nobody was watching, then not to long after that I watched dogs mate for the first time and was so enthused by it I tried her myself, then I was so into it to the point a month or so later a buddy of mines dog was trying to hump my leg and I gave my first handjob, again it felt more like an instinctive act more than a choice; all this happened before my brain was fully developed, it is what influenced me into who I am today; I never sat down and thought one day, hmm it would be cool to finger a dogs vagina or jerk a dog off, no the urge itself was imbedded into me very early, i don't really know exactly why or when but the sexuality itself definitely was far from a choice.. acting on it may have been to a point, but I didn't choose to have sexual feelings for animals, they have always been there

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30-30    21

Trespassing and acidentally spying on me? That´s why I moved on a farm miles away from villages..and I´m also glad fences were invented to keep unwanted folks out of my yard. The "lump in the vagina" is highly hypothetical: my mare once had a colic that made "rectalisation" (inserting the arm into the rectum to empty the colon) necessary. It was an emergency call and my vet was shoulder deep into my mare ...I literally slept with her 3 hours ago, yet no suspicion raised. I surely only speculate, but I doubt my vet would´ve  become suspicious if he had to inspect her vagina. Mares usually pee shortly after intercourse and so they automatically remove all incriminating fluids. 

Plus: although we now have a ban on acts of bestiality in Germany , punishment is rather tame. I won´t go in jail for that, the only possible consequence could be a rather small fine and I could temporarily or permanently lose the right to own animals.The latter surely is the worst of all consequences...still I consider most of your scenarios to be highly hypothetical. I cannot imagine a situation in which I just had sex with her and then an emergency takes place. Horses mostly injure their legs by running/falling...and I don´t know how you imagine me sleeping with my mare, but I can assure you that it´s NOT taking place in full gallop...;)

And why should animals, you know, those creatures all zoophiles insist on loving and caring for so much, tolerate a legislation (or the complete lack thereof) that is opening up ALL paths for abuse and exploitation? Why does it seem that this "free zoophilia" puts the stress on "zoophiles" and their rights while an abused animal that is kept away from any instance that could speak on behalf of the voiceless animal has no chance to withdraw from its "lover"? I once had a quite similar dispute with fuzzyfurry and when he said that he rather accepts some animals to be abused by their "zoo" than having even one "zoo" legally persecuted, I was baffled at how quick so called "zoophiles" throw away all love and care when it´s them and their own gratification. Isn´t placing the "zoo" above animal welfare the epitome of bigotry here, with all the fervor our community displays when it comes to animals? Even one asshole abusing and exploiting his animal in the name of "zoophilia" is one too much for me, the added risks the new laws have brought (it never was a good idea to tell anyone you´re into fucking animals, even without any direct laws against it, btw) are to me a tolerable inconvenience...especiall when you consider how much you have to screw up to actually find yourself in prison, at least in Germany.

 

I also can´t get behind your argumentation of "old sodomy laws" being resurrected. In Germany, the "anti zoo" paragraph is part of the animal welfare law , not civil law. Germany is a rather secular nation in which religion doesn´t play a huge role anymore. There are indeed some influences by religion, but we´re far from turning into a theocracy...Our law against "zoophilia" basically is a "toothless tiger" and many German zoos tend to see it as a simple deterrence tool as well as symbolic jurisdiction. As I said, this law is in effect for nearly five years now and yet, no one ever was jailed because of "zoophilia" and I cannot remember reading about even one incident where a "simple zoophile owner" who abstains from publishing animal porn, fencehopping and holding "fuck parties" with other "zoos" has faced a judge. For me, there´s only one way to influence the "anti zoo" law....by simply preventing it from being applied. Five to ten years without any case that make the appliance of this law necessary and lawmakers will start asking themselves whether this law is obsolete and should be removed. But this is just my perspective....yet, one thing I know for sure is that you will not calm down a rippled water surface by hitting it with a hammer. You let it calm down by NOT hammering at it like a maniac....wu wei, action by non action. 

One facet you all tend to swiftly forget in this is that a ban on "zoophilia" isn´t just a simple conflict between authorities and "unjustly treated zoos". Where are the animals in your calculation? The commonly instrumentalised "harm principle" that would open up all possibilities to psychically oppress animals without inflicting actual physical wounds is unfit as a leading principle. So, let me unfold a theoretical scenario : there´s a "zoo" who keeps his dog solely as his personal sex toy. He is NOT physically harming the animal, but uses it as a convenient sex toy whenever he feels like it while totally abandoning it when he´s not "in the mood". The animal does not openly show signs of mistreatment and abuse. So, what should we do in this case? Look away because "zoo rights"? Wouldn´t that totally contradict our own creed? Placing the human´s interest over the animal´s right? Look, I don´t keep bringing up my proposal/idea of regulated zoophilia for nothing but my own ego here, okay? We WILL need a neutral instance of observance and supervision, one that can objectively decide whether the animal suffers from the "zoo relationship". As I said before, gicing this responsibility into the hands of the "zoo" is basically just making the fox into the hen house keeper...or giving a heroin junkie the keys to the opioid storage and letting him alone decide the dosage. We´re in a dilemmma here...screaming for "free zoophilia" without any neutral observance will mostly benefit the wrong ones. Sometimes, it´s way more heroic, consistent and reasonable to actually make compromises than trying to force our heads through a concrete wall.  Especially when "free zoophilia" practically is total freedom for fencehoppers, animal porn producers and other dubious individuals. Liberal /libertarian principles are nice to have....until their appliance turns into the cause of suffering. Freedom also is a nice thing...until YOUR freedom collides with the freedom of another being. Americans always talk about freedom of gun ownership...but what about the freedom to live one´s life without being shot as an innocent bystander, an unfortunate person standing at the wrong place in the wrong moment?   

So, what is more "zoo"...constant nagging about "zoo freedom" while this idea would deliver many animals to suffering from so called "zoo relations". Or learning to live with a law that most likely will never be applied to you personally if you manage to moderate yourself and keep yourself under the radar , a law that might delete the idea of "Oooh, maybe I could give zoophilia a try" in many adventurous and irresponsible folks? To me, the latter is more zoo...placing the animal´s wellbeing above your own convenience...or, as the original zeta rules word it "The animal ALWAYS comes first!" If only ONE animal is spared from a life in misery and abuse, I as a zoophile am happy to give a part of my freedom, I am willing to tolerate an "unjust" law for this one animal. That´s what zoophilia should be about...the animal always comes first....

Edited by 30-30
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30-30    21
4 hours ago, caikgoch said:

Why does it matter?        Take a run through http://usanewswires.com/tag/Johnny+Oquendo

The guy is accused of having sex with his stepdaughter, killing her to cover it up, and dumping her body in a river.       Half of the trial is about a witness having visited bestiality websites and having pictures on her phone which she voluntarily turned in so messages from the killer could be recovered.

Say, have you heard about whataboutism, caikgoch? ;)

Challenging a witnesses´ credibility is lawyer 101; in your nation that obviously has no problems with showing live footage of cops gunning down bank robbers , but goes nuts when Janet Jackson´s nipple is shown, it´s not the core issue whether some witness is questioned about visits in a bestiality forum, but your nation´s entire focus. Nazis openly wearing insignia of an evil  genocidal dictator? No problemo in the US! But don´t show the nipple...it might negatively influence the kids!!! ;)

To me, the USA basically looks like a death cult. You glorify violence and vilify sexuality...and that as the world´s greatest porn producer and the greatest market for porn of all colours.  You glorify wars, soldiers, guns....you´re afraid of the *eros*, but are completely hooked to the *thanatos*, as Freud would put it. The case you linked doesn´t exactly fit into what you wanted to prove here, it only shows there are issues way deeper than just challenging the credibility of a witness because of visits in a bestiality forum. I´d even say that the witness would be equally attacked if the bestiality forums would´ve been a BDSM forum, a "diaper people forum" or any other aberration you can come up with. This goes deeper than what you are aiming at. And be honest, aren´t we all indeed a little twisted ? ;) 

Joking aside, I really believe that your way, the American way, has come to an end. Trump is the perfect symbol for this...a "conservative" party, emphasising on "family values", "christianity" and "decency" elects a bloated , uncultivated swine as their candidate ...and all the rednecks, poorly educated and disappointed casualities of the change of times (coal!clean coal!!!) make him the president. He withdraws from the Paris climate accord, some states nearly drown from never seen hurricanes and yet, "MAGA!" You all complain about "the media", but it´s you, with your sensationalism who made "the media" into what it is....

You hold up the values of "freedom", yet you invade countless countries, mingle with their political processes (Salvador Allende, anyone?), lead wars solely for oil and leave them with utter chaos (Iraq, Syria etc.), you bomb countries back into stone age simply for vengeance (Afghanistan) and complain about your army being shot at with exactly the same weapons you sold to Afghani warlords decades ago when Russia still was the big baddie...

You privatise jails and wonder why you´re the nation with the highest incarceration rate worldwide, locking away people for literally nothing because inmates equal profits. And don´t get me started on the entire health care issue....there definitely is a bigger problem in your country than just a witness and visits on a bestiality forum...don´t you think? 

 

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caikgoch    34

@ 30-30, congratulations!      You may have just set a new record for size of strawman argument.     How does any part of American culture (which, BTW, saved your parents' ass from that "evil dictator") have anything to do with making it possible for good people to be prosecuted for doing the right thing?     

If the camera in your barn showed both you screwing your mare and an ax murderer chasing your neighbor in and killing him would you have the balls to turn the footage over?      Or would you delete it and lie?

And please see if you can scrape up enough balls to start a thread about American world politics.        

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30-30    21

How anything I mentioned is contributing to the case you quoted? Do you expect a sane, logical and unbiased trial in a country that went absolutely nuts a couple of decades ago? Say, do you expect trials in North Corea to be fair, rational and unbiased? That´s what I wanted to express...you are working yourselves off on nothing but a SYMPTOM of the many issues that your legal system has...one tiny symptom. The flaws won´t disappear even if you manage to correct this "incredible injustice" of doubting the credibility of a witness on the base of visits in a bestiality forum.

It´s quite funny how quickly you can be triggered by simply mentioning some of the obvious (at least for a large portion of the civilised world ;) ) paradoxa your country displays. What also made me roll on the floor laughing is this idea of yours that your nation freed Europe from fascism alone. Please help me out, was it John Rambo or Chuck Norris that killed Hitler, Mussolini and Franco barehandedly and alone? ;)  The vast majority of historians agrees unanimously that it was the red army, but what do these "experts" know....´Murica! Fascism isn´t so bad for the US when there´s money to be made out of it. You also had a national "socialist" party and guys like Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh openly sympathised with the nazis. The existance of concentration camps was known long before anyone in the US ever considered getting involved in the European warzone...Us only entered war when the cashflow was threatened ...

 Say, how much are your nation´s heroic deeds from 80 years ago worth now, with the US harboring what can be described as maybe the largest reservoir of antisemites, racists, neo nazis etc., many of them openly influencing the European neo nazi scene with financial, logistical and personal support? And don´t get me wrong here, I´m not saying your nation is the only one to blame for the reemergence of White nationalism. Everyone and every nation is to blame...but I hate it when a nation that is one of the leading powers to reinstall these insane politics keeps holding up their contributions (rather mediocre ones when you compare it to other nations) as a moral shield. But that also perfectly fits into what I tried to address in my previous post. Two days ago, I watched a documentary about WW2 that showed how baffled and surprised some fighting units comprised of soldiers with African origins ( vulgo: blacks) were when the French resistance fought alongside with them, black and white hand in hand...and not racially segregated units where a black wasn´t allowed to fight along with his white comrades. Sending over racially segregated troops to fight racism and fascism...only ´Murica, folks...;)

But let´s not turn this into a political discussion, there are other forums more suited for this. I only mentioned these flaws in my previous posts to underline my opinion that your country´s legal system doesn´t suffer just from that isolated detail you blew up into your "anger anchor". The problems are systemic and they´re not only present in your legal system, but in your entire society. Mind you, I´m also not generalising here, just pinpointing a hard truth many Americans like to turn a blind eye to because of convenience. Germany has its flaws too, every nation has its flaws. But at least we Germans have a quite reliable legal system that focuses on resocialisation rather than sensationalism and the biblical "an eye for an eye" agenda. It´s surely not perfect, but a similar trial will probably not be seen in a German coutroom..even if a witness visits a bestiality forum, this would be a rather unimportant detail and only the most shabby lawyer would try to make half of the trial into a public shaming for watching humans fuck animals.

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egoldstein    37
16 hours ago, 30-30 said:

The "lump in the vagina" is highly hypothetical:

Quite the contrary, it's an example from my own life. I noticed a tiny bump in my first bitch and fretted about what to do, whether it was anything to really worry about, and how I could manage to get my vet to find it. It took a lot of time and repeated visits to get the vet to do a thorough examination to find it, but by then it was much worse.

I find it interesting that your best defense of these laws is to point out that they're so easy for you to avoid, that you couldn't possibly ever get caught, or that the penalties for you aren't very severe.

 

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And why should animals, you know, those creatures all zoophiles insist on loving and caring for so much, tolerate a legislation (or the complete lack thereof) that is opening up ALL paths for abuse and exploitation? Why does it seem that this "free zoophilia" puts the stress on "zoophiles" and their rights while an abused animal that is kept away from any instance that could speak on behalf of the voiceless animal has no chance to withdraw from its "lover"?

If you were to  attempt to answer some of the questions  posed, you would know that I addressed this specifically. I'll reitterate it again. I do not suppport your "free zoophilia" idea, never have and have pointed this out to you on several occasions. Had you read my earlier replies, you'd know that I even addressed the point about abuse. You have the annoying tendency to ignore everything said and instead just beatup a strawman you dragged in.

 

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I also can´t get behind your argumentation of "old sodomy laws" being resurrected.

Ok, since you appear to have difficulty with this, let me see if I can explain it in a manner which you can understand. If a law is created which focuses on a sexual action and is applied *no matter if there is harm or not*, then that law is about controlling sexual expression and not about animal welfare, since it doesn't matter if the animal is harmed or not. Maybe things work differently in Germany, but pretty much everywhere else this would be an extension of the old sodomy laws.

 

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So, let me unfold a theoretical scenario : there´s a "zoo" who keeps his dog solely as his personal sex toy. He is NOT physically harming the animal, but uses it as a convenient sex toy whenever he feels like it while totally abandoning it when he´s not "in the mood". The animal does not openly show signs of mistreatment and abuse. So, what should we do in this case? Look away because "zoo rights"? Wouldn´t that totally contradict our own creed?

In this case, why does sex even matter? You accept there's no harm from it, but yet you continue focusing on the sex instead of neglect and abuse. In this one example you destroy your own position. I think in such a case we should do exactly the same as in any other case, that it should be examined not from a sexual angle but from a neglect/abuse angle. What if in your example, the person doesn't ever have sex with the animal, is the neglect suddenly A-OK because at least they aren't fucking it? That's the whole point, your focus on sex narrows your view so that you don't even see any other abuse.

 

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Placing the human´s interest over the animal´s right? Look, I don´t keep bringing up my proposal/idea of regulated zoophilia for nothing but my own ego here, okay?

Saying it does not make it true, I have yet to see any evidence that this is based on anything *BUT* your own ego.

 

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.We´re in a dilemmma here...screaming for "free zoophilia" without any neutral observance will mostly benefit the wrong ones.

And in this entire thread, you're the only one who's even hinted at the idea of "free zoophilia", whatever that means. Here's a hint, when you resort to arguing against something nobody else in the conversation has even said, chances are you're fighting a strawman. If you go through this thread and see, you'll find that you've been asked several direct questions by myself and others. Why is it you've not attempted responding to those, but instead keep up with your strawman attacks? Is it because deep down you know your argument is flawed but your ego just can't accept it?

 

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So, what is more "zoo"...constant nagging about "zoo freedom" while this idea would deliver many animals to suffering from so called "zoo relations".

Again, the only one constantly nagging about "zoo freedom" has been you.

 

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Or learning to live with a law that most likely will never be applied to you personally if you manage to moderate yourself and keep yourself under the radar , a law that might delete the idea of "Oooh, maybe I could give zoophilia a try" in many adventurous and irresponsible folks?

So you're saying it's A-OK for an action which you accept as non harmful to be illegal because some people who engage in that action commit some other, unrelated crime of abuse? Furthermore, you accept that abuse happens even when sex isn't involved, but that abuse doesn't matter because those people aren't engaging in the action you accept as non-harmful? All of this just to try and stop some people from engaging in an action which you accept as non-harmful. Did you even think about this before you started typing?

Here's a clue, focus on harm and you get those comitting abuse while not harassing those not comitting abuse. Focusing on sex instead of abuse makes it clear that your issue isn't about abuse, you've already demonstrated you don't really care about abuse, but rather you're offended about the sex. Your last sentence here makes that 100% clear, you're railing against people who you think are "adventurous and irresponsible" who you think might "give zoophilia a try", no concern there about abuse whatsoever.

Edited by egoldstein
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caikgoch    34

@30-30As best I can understand that you wish to make something that you hate beyond any rational thought worse so you can justify your hate?

You haven't answered a question yet but here's another chance:  what is wrong with enforcing cruelty laws correctly instead of inventing victim less crimes that are easier to prosecute?         If an animal is being harmed who cares why the harm was done?         Punish the harm and let the rest go.          We call that "the rule of law".         Prosecution should be based on evidence of actual harm not a minority opinion.        (prediction: 30-30 will go ballistic over "minority") 

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Cynolove693    155

Again the thread has been derailed way off topic, if you guys want to debate law could someone please start a separate thread??

Thanks.

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silverwolf1    192

I wonder about the other side of the coin. Rather than how these feelings can be a precursor to zoophilic behavior, how does zoophilia effect these feelings starting? 

sw

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egoldstein    37
8 hours ago, Cynolove693 said:

Again the thread has been derailed way off topic, if you guys want to debate law could someone please start a separate thread??

Thanks.

Sorry Cynolove.

 

5 hours ago, silverwolf1 said:

I wonder about the other side of the coin. Rather than how these feelings can be a precursor to zoophilic behavior, how does zoophilia effect these feelings starting? 

sw

It's an interesting question. This is all anecdotal, but I've always felt an attraction/affinity for non-humans. Interestingly, after I came to terms with it, I talked about it with several members of my family, with whom I was close, and got varied results from them. My brother, always a pussy hound, had never even *considered* that such was possible, yet we were raised in the same environment (mostly, there's always some differences even with twins, which we are not). A discussion with one of my aunts yielded her talking about trying it a few times, mostly handjobs to the dog, but a few explorations further in too. She was OK with it, but greatly preferered other humans. I have an uncle who admitted some interest, but no admission of action; it's an open question still I suppose. Growing up I had no exposure to it that I am aware of, yet I can recall being around 7 and having sexual/love thoughts and feelings about animals. So it seems to me plausible that innate feelings could lead some of us toward a non-human as a partner, naturally.

I mentioned briefly earlier my thoughts about a genetic link.; I want to be clear here that this is pure speculation. Among the many hereditary features of domestication, part of it is being able to mate in the presence of another species and to an extent, to consider that other species as a member of the species unit (herd/pack/flock/pod/etc). We don't often think of ourselves as being a domesticated species, but we exhibit a large number of features of domestication ourselves and I've speculated that perhaps in some of us, the varied ability to empathize with non-humans, to see them as potential members of our troop, and to see them as potential mates,, could possibly be a stronger than typical expression of it. Something to think about.

Edit: On the flipside, I think I could argue that it could be, at least in part, a combination of memes and positive reinforcement from the pleasure of sex.

Edited by egoldstein

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30-30    21

@caikgoch: Yeah, why should it make a difference whether I hit a kid or rape it? /s  Good for you that you obviously adopted a "sex is just as normal as taking a leak" weltbild....but the rest of the world isn´t buying...does that answer your question? And since Silverwolf expressed his wishes we shouldn´t derail this thread anymore, that will be my last off topic reply.

 

On topic: Interesting question, Silverwolf. Egoldstein´s reply might sound somewhat coherent, but then I am the direct opposite to that as I never was what could be described as "drawn towards animals" in my childhood. We had a bobtail as a family dog when I was young, but I´ve never seen myself as especially attached emotionally to animals. I´ve had contact to a few horses in my childhood, but there never was this special feeling towards them...hell, I even considered horses to be "girlie stuff" for the vast majority of my childhood. Only when I reached puberty, these feelings of indifference and "meh! Horses."  changed.Fundamentally.

IN one of his books from the discworld cycle, Terry Pratchett introduced the idea of a special element he called "narrativium" that is solely important for humans. He described it as "the storymaking element", every human´s urge to comprise a coherent story out of a rather chaotic life. I really think this entire debate is heavily influenced by this "narrativium", the urge to find "reasons", tie links to unrelated elements for the sole reason of making a story out of it. 

Having said this, I want to mention that a large portion of these "animal welfare activists" and many show off vegans and vegetarians also insist on having a very close relationship to animals in their childhood. But as you know, these two groups aren´t exactly what you´d consider a collection of zoophiles or the epitome of support for zoos. I really don´t believe there´s a direct connection here. Of course I can only speak for myself here, but my zoophilia started when I reached puberty and found myself untterly uninterested in humans on a sexual and partnership level. Before that, I was just a "normal" boy without any intentions to become "one of those sick animal fuckers" at all. I martyred myself about the "Why" during my puberty quite a lot because I wanted to understand , I searched for "reasons" , read books, spoke to other zoos...but up to this day, I couldn´t find any final answer to the "Why?". Genetical, environmental, social,etc....no single "reason"  and not even a combination of those "reasons" answered my "Why?" here. I´ve met more than enough people and heard their stories to falsify both sides of the "coin" here. You can have an extraordinary attachment to animals in your childhood and still come out of it without the yearning to have sex with an animal, you can (as I, among some other zoos, did) have little to no emotional attachment to animals and still find yourself being a zoophile.  I grew up in a suburban environment, but my one half of my grandparents still lived and worked as farmers in a rural area, so I can say I was exposed to "both worlds", yet neither of these worlds has shaped my sexual orientation. My grandpa had several draft horses and I could have had easy access to them without much ado...on the other hand, when I was in school and just developing my sexual identity, my classmates used to tease me with my newly discovered affliction with equines on a regular basis. To abbreviate this: I heavily doubt we will come to a disclosure in this discussion, there is no final solution, there are no "warning signs", no isolated incident that makes you a zoo. Sure, many outer influences will play a certain role in becoming a zoo, but in the end, I feel it´s all dependent on your personality. Being socially awkward may seem like a logical predisposition...if you can´t find a common place with humans, you naturally will start searching for other outlets of your sexual energy....but on the other hand, there are masses of socially awkward people who would never ever even think about falling in love with an animal instead. There are tons of sexually "adventurous" folks who will never waste a thought on bestiality...and not only because it´s "forbidden" and banned by law.

 

I believe the whole debate is doomed to fail, there is no sole reason, no influence that inevitably will lead to "zoophilia"...at least not a general one applicable to us as an entire subgroup of people. Each and every one will find "reasons" why he/she is THAT way....if he/she is digging deep enough. But I heavily tend to think that it´s truly the "narrativium" that´s working here, the urge to tell a coherent story to others , to yourself...to make something that´s rather irrational and inconcievable less frightening and erratic. I am a zoo because I am a zoo. I don´t need more "reasons" that that. I don´t try to find what "triggered" me becoming a zoo anymore because I couldn´t find that one , life changing "trigger"...and god knows how hard I tried to.

 I grew up as a rather "normal" boy, never was exposed to animals in an extraordinary manner, never had social problems with humans, wasn´t rejected by women or anything like that. I evn got bitten and bucked off by a horse in Kindergarten....and still , here I am, an exclusive zoophile in his fourties who found his soulate and lived with her for 22 years in perfect harmony. Here I am, completely uninterested in having a human partner (what I, btw, find equally repulsive as a normal person might find it to be in a partnership with an animal), sure about my orientation and the fact I can and will only find my peace of mind with a mare by my side, as my partner, my equal.

With a mare by my side, I feel "at home", I feel I am where I belong to , where I should be. I feel "understood", I feel calm and relaxed. And that´s the only "reason" for me to have come to terms with the strange "hand" that has been dealt to me. I don´t waste my energy on reasoning why I ended up with exactly these "cards" anymore, I just try to play these cards the best way possible, to get the most out of this situation, no matter how "good" or "bad" these cards might seem.

A horse obviously doesn´t wonder why it is a horse...so, why should I wonder and martyr myself with trying to find "reasons" for what I am? Reasons that are effectively not existent? I guess that´s where zoos really should take an example from their quadruped partners....stop worrying, stop digging for "reasons" and "triggers" that made you what you are, start living instead. Life is short...even shorter for our partners...so why the heck should I invest this precious time in chasing ghosts? I am what I am. And I can perfectly live without digging for reasons, reasons that may never be found. I somehow envy "dumb" people ´cause they always seem to be happier with their lives than everyone else. I´m not generalising this though...but ignorance indeed IS bliss...to a certain degree. Freedom isn´t granted by laws, freedom comes from within.

Reality is chaotic , erratic and irrational. Yet, humans tend to look at reality and draw grids onto the window glass they are watching reality through to make sense out of the chaos. Sadly, many humans tend to mistake their self drawn grids for reality. The world needs no reason to exist, so why should I as a zoo? I quit mining for "narrativium" a long time ago...and, what can I say, life is way easier ever since. ;)   

Just my two cents...

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silverwolf1    192

Which brings us to my position: 

I am zoo because I am. I am bestialist because I chose to be. I stay labeling myself both because I want to. I think there are many internal and environmental "reasons, causes, influences" that effect our being and our choices, and that they are likely as completely different as the individual is. I think depression or social anxiety can be one of those influences, one of many for that individual. I believe it can also be a result of the same for other individuals, as my depression is for me. 

I agree that we search for reasons where reasons may not be, but if searching brings you peace then search away. I never wondered why I was zoo, only why I acted upon those feelings. I looked for reasons why I engaged in bestiality, and concluded only that it was my choice. I could have stayed with humans, or barring that, could have stayed without a sex partner, but chose to have sex based on my lust, and love in my case. Many others will conclude different results.

This has indeed been an interesting topic and discussion, and I hope it continues as such. 

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Cynolove693    155

I'd imagine being zoophile doesn't cause social anxiety other factors are involved normally; Anxiety disorders are usually caused from trauma at one point or another in your life (but it can be a symptom of another underlying disorder such as autism so that's not always true), wether it be emotional or physical..

I do believe however that being a zoophile that suffers from anxiety but has an animal around would be a help to treating it or at least give a sense of security to lesson the symptoms.. so it does in a way influence anxiety to improvement, it is seen as a opinion of many psychologists that animals can be therapeutical..

I'll explain at least for me Ive found with a dog around when I'm around other people I don't feel as anxious or on the edge of panicking, I open up alot more than usual, I begin to feel at ease, unfrozen as if I can actually speak, I don't feel the constant fear that I'll say something wrong (yes some people have anxiety that affects them to that extreme of an extent) there is something about the presence of a dog that is reassuring, calming, almost therapeutic without the need for any words being said, the presence of a dog can be healing to a point; (more so when I'm around a dog I already have a connection with)

Even with the impulse to hate others in my mind that stems from the intense fear of people that takes over on a constant basis, having a dog around reminds me that the most important thing in life to do is love not hate; don't get me wrong though it is still very hard to function as a "normal" person of society with disorders that affect your ability to function socially, I can't bring a dog with me anywhere I go, even if I'd like to...

Now the flip of the coin; I believe that being zoophile is going to make social anxiety even worse in some ways as the main fear of social anxiety is what people think of you, even if they don't know of your zoophilic lifestyle, you'll still feel as I they are judging you, would abandon you if they did find out, or will find out somehow, even if it may be irrational to think that way, people that are zoophile with anxiety would feel that way, I do anyways; sad thing is it's true, most people would abandon someone because of a lifestyle such as zoophilia without a second thought..

Edited by Cynolove693

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@Silverwolf: "...if searching brings you peace then search away" Yeah, I second that. But oftentimes, people are too focused on finding something at the end of the path while the true element of growth actually is the experience of walking that path. When finding a "reason" becomes obsessive and accepting that there is no single "reason" becomes taboo, the whole process of searching becomes toxic. I also wouldn´t say that I "chose" to act on my urges ´cause when I stood with the mare I had a sexual encounter with, I hasn´t felt like "Hmmm, should I? Or shouldn´t I?" To me, all my actions leading towards this moment like becoming a memeber of a riding club more felt like destiny has set a path for me and forcing me down this path regardless of what I was thinking of it. Or, as Goethe said : "Halb zog es ihn, halb sank er hin..." (One half of him was irresistable drawn into it, the other half was him submitting to it). But, as you said, everyone has a different perspective and results may vary largely here.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @cynolove: Therapeutical benefits from animals aren´t an opinion, they´re scientifically proven and common knowledge among therapeuts. I too experienced a tremendous boost from being around horses as a teenager. I became more self confident, more approachable than I was before, more involved in social interaction ´cause you cannot avoid running into other people in a public boarding stable/riding school. I´d even say that signing in to this riding school has largely shaped me as a social being. Before that, I was what you´d call a loner, not because I was socially awkward and lacked social skills, but because I was completely uninterested in humans at all. .                              I surely had my fears of being discovered as a practicing zoo in my life, but it never piled up to a bona fide general anxiety. I guess what predominantly saved me from developing such is my experience as a pothead ´cause I never seen another subgroup of people that gives less shit on "legality" than stoners do...at least if they´re the habitual 24/7 stoners, not some wannabe teenagers turning pale whenever they see a police car heading in their direction. ;) I often wonder whether all these anxious folks have "I fuck animals!" tattooed on their foreheads; as I said before, most "zoos" running into problems with authority have contributed a rather vast portion to raise the attention towards them themselves. Most of those "anxious zoos" make one basic mistake when thinking that the way out of their anxiety is talking when in reality it´s the direct opposite. Yeah, you all have to learn how to shut up on a pro level, that´s the way out. You all have to overcome your ego, the little man sitting in your heads, whispering "You HAVE to tell EVERYBODY!" in your ears. You might know the Kantian phrase of "Sapere aude!" that roughly translates to "Be confident enough to use your mind!", but I believe that in zoophilia, "Tacere aude!" ("Be confident enough in yourself to stay silent!") would be the most beneficial advice. I don´t know how the world will be in 50, 100 or 200 years, but now, learning to cherish silence as an ally would help our community tremendously. "Zoo anxiety" levels would lower significantly by simply adapting this; the time isn´t right just yet and as hard as it may seem for some (why though? Honestly, why is it so important that everyone knows what makes your noodle hard?), it is the better choice to not try and push zoophilia into the public. Many problems in our community are self made, I guess...but the first step to solving a problem is to become aware of the problem...so, what is it you all expect from "zoo advocacy" in public? Do you really believe all the ones who reject any sexual contact between humans and animals will all of a sudden bump their palms onto their foreheads, saying "Oh gosh, of course you should be allowed to pump away at any quadruped!" and "Hell, I´ll immediately call my representant in congress and insist that he makes fucking animals legal tomorrow!"?                                                                                                        I made my peace with society and the fact that my orientation now is deemed "illegal" since the German law was installed in 2013. I just have no reason to be anxious because I know how much you have to screw up to actually be prosecuted for "zoophilia". I have calculated the risk and accepted it as a part of my orientation, my life (not a friggin´ ´lifestyle`) and my reality. I don´t want a safe space, I prefer actual life, even if it gets a little rough on me. That´s part of living anyway. And one thing I can assure to all of you anxious people as a zoo who´s practicing his orientation for nearly 30 years now: It isn´t so bad! You CAN live it, there is no FBI unit waiting at your door , ready to break and enter at any moment. Just pay attention on whom you give incriminating info about you and learn to subdue that little man in your head that keeps you thinking you have to "come out" to anyone in order to be able of living a good life. Yes, people may reject you for your orientation and you even may have to endure some hard times in your life, but you don´t overcome your fear of ghosts by leaving the lights on in your entire house. Confront yourself with your fears, learn to rationalise them, learn to calculate the ACTUAL risks involved...fear actually IS good, nature gave you this feeling for a reason. Fear keeps you alert and focused, embrace it and cherish it as a possibility to train your awareness of your surroundings, your friends and family and how they might think about zoophilia...don´t try to avoid it solely for the reason of shaping reality into a safe space. And let me assure you that living a "zoo life" is absolutely possible without ever being caught or exposed if you obey a few safety rules. No one will look at you and say "This guy´s an animal fucker!", no one has "I fuck animals!" tattooed on their foreheads. Just learn to live with the dangers involved, know them and do your best to avoid them. Stay away from publishing "zoo" stuff yourselves, don´t give in to your "little man" in your heads bugging you to tell everyone about your special interests and you all will be good. And even IF you are caught in an incriminating situation, you might just be surprised by how little repercussions it sometimes can have: my best friend, also a zoo and my ex roommate once was caught with his head under his cow´s tail by the owner of the farm his cow is standing at. The owner approached him, simply saying "Well, I can´t understand what you´re doing, but I saw enough to know you would never ever hurt her"....and walked away, leaving behind my friend who was still full of adrenaline from the rush of being spotted red handed. Help and support will sometimes come from the most unexpected directions....true love will conquer and prevail.                                                                                                       

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Cynolove693    155
12 hours ago, 30-30 said:

@Silverwolf: "...if searching brings you peace then search away" Yeah, I second that. But oftentimes, people are too focused on finding something at the end of the path while the true element of growth actually is the experience of walking that path. When finding a "reason" becomes obsessive and accepting that there is no single "reason" becomes taboo, the whole process of searching becomes toxic. I also wouldn´t say that I "chose" to act on my urges ´cause when I stood with the mare I had a sexual encounter with, I hasn´t felt like "Hmmm, should I? Or shouldn´t I?" To me, all my actions leading towards this moment like becoming a memeber of a riding club more felt like destiny has set a path for me and forcing me down this path regardless of what I was thinking of it. Or, as Goethe said : "Halb zog es ihn, halb sank er hin..." (One half of him was irresistable drawn into it, the other half was him submitting to it). But, as you said, everyone has a different perspective and results may vary largely here.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      @cynolove: Therapeutical benefits from animals aren´t an opinion, they´re scientifically proven and common knowledge among therapeuts. I too experienced a tremendous boost from being around horses as a teenager. I became more self confident, more approachable than I was before, more involved in social interaction ´cause you cannot avoid running into other people in a public boarding stable/riding school. I´d even say that signing in to this riding school has largely shaped me as a social being. Before that, I was what you´d call a loner, not because I was socially awkward and lacked social skills, but because I was completely uninterested in humans at all. .                              I surely had my fears of being discovered as a practicing zoo in my life, but it never piled up to a bona fide general anxiety. I guess what predominantly saved me from developing such is my experience as a pothead ´cause I never seen another subgroup of people that gives less shit on "legality" than stoners do...at least if they´re the habitual 24/7 stoners, not some wannabe teenagers turning pale whenever they see a police car heading in their direction. ;) I often wonder whether all these anxious folks have "I fuck animals!" tattooed on their foreheads; as I said before, most "zoos" running into problems with authority have contributed a rather vast portion to raise the attention towards them themselves. Most of those "anxious zoos" make one basic mistake when thinking that the way out of their anxiety is talking when in reality it´s the direct opposite. Yeah, you all have to learn how to shut up on a pro level, that´s the way out. You all have to overcome your ego, the little man sitting in your heads, whispering "You HAVE to tell EVERYBODY!" in your ears. You might know the Kantian phrase of "Sapere aude!" that roughly translates to "Be confident enough to use your mind!", but I believe that in zoophilia, "Tacere aude!" ("Be confident enough in yourself to stay silent!") would be the most beneficial advice. I don´t know how the world will be in 50, 100 or 200 years, but now, learning to cherish silence as an ally would help our community tremendously. "Zoo anxiety" levels would lower significantly by simply adapting this; the time isn´t right just yet and as hard as it may seem for some (why though? Honestly, why is it so important that everyone knows what makes your noodle hard?), it is the better choice to not try and push zoophilia into the public. Many problems in our community are self made, I guess...but the first step to solving a problem is to become aware of the problem...so, what is it you all expect from "zoo advocacy" in public? Do you really believe all the ones who reject any sexual contact between humans and animals will all of a sudden bump their palms onto their foreheads, saying "Oh gosh, of course you should be allowed to pump away at any quadruped!" and "Hell, I´ll immediately call my representant in congress and insist that he makes fucking animals legal tomorrow!"?                                                                                                        I made my peace with society and the fact that my orientation now is deemed "illegal" since the German law was installed in 2013. I just have no reason to be anxious because I know how much you have to screw up to actually be prosecuted for "zoophilia". I have calculated the risk and accepted it as a part of my orientation, my life (not a friggin´ ´lifestyle`) and my reality. I don´t want a safe space, I prefer actual life, even if it gets a little rough on me. That´s part of living anyway. And one thing I can assure to all of you anxious people as a zoo who´s practicing his orientation for nearly 30 years now: It isn´t so bad! You CAN live it, there is no FBI unit waiting at your door , ready to break and enter at any moment. Just pay attention on whom you give incriminating info about you and learn to subdue that little man in your head that keeps you thinking you have to "come out" to anyone in order to be able of living a good life. Yes, people may reject you for your orientation and you even may have to endure some hard times in your life, but you don´t overcome your fear of ghosts by leaving the lights on in your entire house. Confront yourself with your fears, learn to rationalise them, learn to calculate the ACTUAL risks involved...fear actually IS good, nature gave you this feeling for a reason. Fear keeps you alert and focused, embrace it and cherish it as a possibility to train your awareness of your surroundings, your friends and family and how they might think about zoophilia...don´t try to avoid it solely for the reason of shaping reality into a safe space. And let me assure you that living a "zoo life" is absolutely possible without ever being caught or exposed if you obey a few safety rules. No one will look at you and say "This guy´s an animal fucker!", no one has "I fuck animals!" tattooed on their foreheads. Just learn to live with the dangers involved, know them and do your best to avoid them. Stay away from publishing "zoo" stuff yourselves, don´t give in to your "little man" in your heads bugging you to tell everyone about your special interests and you all will be good. And even IF you are caught in an incriminating situation, you might just be surprised by how little repercussions it sometimes can have: my best friend, also a zoo and my ex roommate once was caught with his head under his cow´s tail by the owner of the farm his cow is standing at. The owner approached him, simply saying "Well, I can´t understand what you´re doing, but I saw enough to know you would never ever hurt her"....and walked away, leaving behind my friend who was still full of adrenaline from the rush of being spotted red handed. Help and support will sometimes come from the most unexpected directions....true love will conquer and prevail.                                                                                                       

You misunderstood what I meant, I don't have the urge to tell anyone I'm a zoophile, I know that silence keeps you safe; completely aware of that; honestly never meet another zoo online that wasn't cautious, not saying there isn't the fools out there but I'm definitely smart enough to not out myself.. As for you not experiencing social anxiety, I'm honestly glad you haven't, its hell (think a constant fear that everyone hates you, wether it's rational to feel that way or not, youll have no control over it), so your not going through it is honestly a blessing.

With that being said you don't really understand it as you've never truly experienced it so it's outside of your perception; it's not as simple as one just changes those feelings of anxiety when they are a part of their personality and neurodevelopment; if mental disorders were that black and white, that simple, then there really wouldn't be the need for psychologists/psychiatrist and all these medications they push on people..

If you think about it though every theory out there has been opinion until proven otherwise, I don't doubt one bit that animals help people with disabilities, and wasn't implying that it wasn't a common knowledge, sorry I should have used better wording there; sometimes I have that problem, bare with me..

Anyhow, I can relate to being a stoner though that is one other thing that helps me with my disabilities, "help's" is the underlying word there; its not a preventative or cure to it

Edited by Cynolove693

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